Financial Planning, Entrepreneurship, and the Human Side of Money

I recently joined Oliver Kotelnikov on the Next Venture Alliance Show for a conversation about financial planning, entrepreneurship, business ownership, and the human side of money.

Financial planning is often misunderstood. Many people assume it is only about investing, only relevant for retirement, or only necessary once they have built significant wealth. In reality, financial planning is the process of making thoughtful decisions about money so it supports the life you want to live, both now and in the future.

In this conversation, we discussed how I found my way into financial planning, what led to the creation of Embolden Financial Planning LLC, why many people delay planning, and why money decisions are often about much more than numbers.

Key Topics Discussed

·       How I moved from technology into financial planning

·       Why I founded Embolden Financial Planning as an hourly, advice-only, fiduciary firm

·       The difference between investing and comprehensive financial planning

·       Why business owners often delay financial planning

·       How financial planning can be approached in manageable steps

·       Why money decisions are often emotional, not just mathematical

·       The role of fiduciary advice and transparent pricing

·       How business owners can think about retirement plans, liquidity events, and eventual business exits

·       The importance of goals-based planning

·       How childhood experiences and family dynamics often shape money behaviors

·       How AI may change the future of financial planning, but not the human side of it

·       Why time matters, and why financial planning is about using money with purpose

A Few Takeaways From the Conversation

One of the biggest themes from this discussion is that financial planning is broader than most people think. Investments are only one piece of the picture. A good plan also considers taxes, insurance, estate planning, retirement, education funding, business planning, and the practical tradeoffs that come with real life.

We also discussed how many people, especially business owners, delay planning because they are busy, uncertain where to start, or assume they need to have everything figured out before getting help. In reality, financial planning can begin with a single question, a single concern, or a single transition point. It does not have to be all or nothing.

Another important theme was that money is emotional. Conversations about saving, spending, retirement, business ownership, children, parents, and legacy often carry years of experience, fear, hope, and family history with them. That is one reason I believe financial planning works best when it includes both the numbers and the human side of money.

Finally, we talked about why my approach is hourly, advice-only, and fiduciary. My role is to provide thoughtful recommendations that I believe are in the client’s best interest, without product commissions or asset minimums getting in the way. That structure helps create the transparency and trust needed for honest conversations.

Transcript

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:00:00]:

Good morning and welcome to the Next Venture Alliance Show. My name is Oliver Kotelnikov. I'm an entrepreneur, a storyteller, a mergers and acquisitions advisor, and a business and commercial real estate broker. On this show we talk with founders, business owners, self-starters, industry leaders, and trusted advisors who support them. And together we explore both the strategic and human sides of entrepreneurship. On today's episode, I'm joined by Tim Melia. Tim is a Principal with Embolden Financial Planning.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:00:34]:

Embolden provides advice-only comprehensive financial planning services on an hourly consulting basis. Areas of focus include sustainable investing, cash flow and debt management, retirement, tax and estate planning, personal finance education, and goal setting in real estate investing. Embolden serves clients nationwide with a regional focus on Washington, Oregon, and California. And before this, Tim spent a decade at Laird Norton Wealth Management consulting ultra-high-net-worth individuals and families in all phases of financial planning. Tim has a degree in business administration from the University of Gonzaga and an executive certificate in financial planning from Seattle University. Tim and his wife, Melissa, also founded and sold Madeson Management, a boutique property management firm in Seattle, which happens to be how we met. And Tim, what a journey. What a resume. Nice to see you again. Welcome to the next Venture Alliance Show.

Tim Melia [00:01:35]:

Thank you, Oliver. I'm happy to be here. And before we get going, all of my Gonzaga friends will kill me if I don't correct you. It's Gonzaga University, not University of Gonzaga. Sorry, sorry, go Zags, but I just had to correct you there

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:01:53]:

I appreciate it. I appreciate it. And so, you know, the worlds of entrepreneurship and financial planning are closely intertwined. They travel hand in hand. You're both a professional financial advisor and a business owner. You know, how did you get started, and what led up to, you know, your current venture and Embolden?

Tim Melia [00:02:18]:

Yeah, yeah. So forgive me if I go too far back here, but when I graduated from Gonzaga University, I'll never forget it. I promise I'm going to keep repeating here. So I graduated just after the dot-com boom and bust. And so, you know, I was kind of in that phase where it's like, oh, I got to get into technology. You know, that's where the money is. That's where the longevity in career is. And so I started off as a network administrator for a small production company.

Tim Melia [00:02:58]:

And I was there for a few years, and it was interesting. But what I found more interesting is now I was getting paid, and I had a paycheck coming in, and I was wondering, what do I do with this money? How do I make the most of it? How do I plan for the future? And you know, so that kind of led me to digging into personal finance. You know, I was reading everything I could find and, you know, just trying to learn as much as I could. And that kind of, you know, I shared that with my friends and family, and they were asking me questions about personal finance. And you know, I really—it felt good to kind of help them, you know, figure out some of this stuff, you know, just based on my own research. And that kind of led me to a decision that, you know, I wanted to make a career change, and I wanted to get into personal finance. And so that led me to a small financial planning firm here in Seattle that I worked at for a few years, and I really got to see kind of how a firm operates, kind of the nuts and bolts of things.

Tim Melia [00:04:01]:

While I was there, I got my certification as a Certified Financial Planner®, and I got my graduate degree from Seattle University. And then I moved on to Laird Norton Wealth Management, you mentioned in the introduction there. And I was there for 10 years, and I was working with a couple of different types of clients. You know, we were a corporate trustee, which means we were helping to administer trusts. So, we were working with the beneficiaries of trusts and things like that. But also, I had the opportunity to work with a lot of business owners who had sold their businesses, had had liquidity events, and were kind of in this new phase of life with this money. Maybe they hadn't been doing the personal finance stuff all along, and they wanted to kind of turn it over to professionals to help with the wealth management.

Tim Melia [00:04:54]:

And so, I got a lot of opportunity to work with those types of clients. All the while, Oliver, my wife, and I were buying single-family homes, living in them, remodeling them, and eventually turning them into rental properties. And we did this a couple of times, and with this again, family and friends kind of took interest, and they started asking, you know, can you help me with my rental property? And that kind of led us to start a residential property management firm here in Seattle. And that grew to a point where my wife left her full-time profession, and then eventually I left financial planning in 2018 to go full-time in the business. Did that for about four years. We weathered Covid as property managers here in Seattle, and you know the story kind of well there, and we decided it was time to sell the business. And that kind of gave me an opportunity to choose my own adventure. You know, what do I want to do next? And I knew I wanted to get back into financial planning, but I wanted to do it the way that I wanted to do it.

Tim Melia [00:06:03]:

And that was in the hourly fee-only advice-only model of financial planning. And so I kind of endeavored to start that up. And at the start of 2023, I started that business. And that's kind of where you find me here today.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:06:22]:

No, thank you for that overview. And through all that, you've got the entrepreneurial spirit. You're always, you know, you're looking at kind of the next horizon and following your own interest, right? And what, you know, taking cues from what you're doing and saying, okay, can this be something that's, you know, turned into a business? And then you're getting feedback from friends and family, which is often that closest circle that tells you, hey, you know, 10 family members have asked us about this. Clearly there's a need for this. And on the financial planning part, I think historically it's a difficult area for business owners. Just one, as humans, for us, long-range planning is difficult. We have fires burning in front of us right now. As a business owner, you've been a business owner; you need to invest in equipment, you need to invest in infrastructure.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:07:23]:

The instinct is just to put everything into the business today oftentimes. But I think the other challenge is it seems like a big lift, understanding financial planning. There’s different terms, right? Terminology—like, what is the difference between investing, financial planning, estate planning, money management, retirement planning, and wealth advisory? Are they the same? Are they different? And then people feel like there's a big commitment to be made, they need to sit down, they need to understand the terms, they need to allocate money. And the response is, and you've seen this, probably we'll get to it, and it gets kicked down the road. So how do you address maybe the differences between those terms?

Tim Melia [00:08:10]:

Well, I'll first apologize on behalf of the finance industry that we like to use jargon sometime. And every time I meet with a client, I say, forgive me in advance if I start throwing around jargon. If I do, please raise your hand. I want to make sure that you understand what we're talking about here. But financial planning, if I could kind of describe it, is kind of, you know, if you think about an umbrella, financial planning is kind of the umbrella. And with, you know, covered under that umbrella is different pieces, different pieces of financial planning. You know, the investment portfolio. I think for a lot of people, investments comes to mind when you think about financial planning.

Tim Melia [00:08:55]:

You know, thinking about, you know, where do we deploy our dollars, what types of accounts do we put them in, how do we allocate our investments, all that kind of stuff lands in the investment piece of it. But there's more to it. You know, insurance, you know, in my practice, I don't sell insurance. I don't make any commissions on any products. But insurance is an important thing to think about because if we're not properly insured for certain things, it could derail our plan that we're kind of endeavoring to solve for. And so, I'm engaging with my clients in the area of insurance. You know, the big ones are, you know, life insurance, disability insurance, all the way out to the end of our plan, which is the polite way to say when we die, you know, is there a need for long-term care insurance? Our living situation may be different there at the end of life, and we want to give some consideration to that. So, all sorts of things in that insurance space. Estate planning, you know, that's the, the, the wills, the powers of attorney, the health care directives, you know, all those kinds of things, you know, trusts, those kinds of things.

Tim Melia [00:10:09]:

So, you know, we'll talk strategically, or I'll talk strategically with clients about, you know, what makes sense for you and your situation to kind of, again, protect those assets. And, you know, not only are we thinking about what is, what do things look like during your lifetime, but what happens after you pass. We want it to be kind of a cohesive strategy all the way through. And so what happens to those assets after you pass? Are your loved ones taken care of via that estate planning? And then taxes, you know, taxes touch everything that we talk about in financial planning. And a lot of it is, how do we optimize things from a tax perspective? And there's any number of things that—that looks like a big question. A lot of my clients have saved all of our life, we've invested all of our life, and then we kind of hit that retirement point. That's a huge shift in a mindset to now have to start to draw down those assets and start spending them. That's, that's a, you know, thing that we kind of engage with in the tax space, you know, and all sorts of other things.

Tim Melia [00:11:15]:

You know, when do we collect Social Security? Are there opportunities to do things with tax-advantaged accounts like conversions to Roth, you know, all sorts of different things. That's kind of the tax planning space. But all of that, I would say is kind of encompassed in that kind of financial planning universe.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:11:36]:

And I mean, is there a way for someone who, let's say, you know, a busy business owner who doesn't you know, has a surface level of knowledge and, you know, maybe recognizes the terms that we just used. But how do you start wrapping your heads around your kind of your arms around the whole concept and say, okay, which pieces apply to me? What do I need to look at?

Tim Melia [00:12:02]:

Yeah, so sometimes it's.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:12:06]:

How do you make it actionable? I guess. Is it for someone who just is starting from zero or has minimal engagement?

Tim Melia [00:12:12]:

Yeah, it's tricky sometimes. And I really like to kind of meet my clients where they are. A lot of times they'll come to me because something is triggering this need, you know, wherever that pain point is. You know, maybe that's a good point to start, but it really is a conversation. And, you know, if a client comes to me with a concern in one area very quickly, it kind of, you know, connects to these other topics. You know, we don't kind of operate in a vacuum. Each topic is connected to the other. And, you know, when I'm constructing a plan for a client, it's really important for us to kind of hit all of these categories.

Tim Melia [00:13:00]:

And, you know, ultimately I'm giving recommendations to a client as their fiduciary. What I think is in their best interest, to get, you know, solve for the goals that they're trying to accomplish. But it's okay to kind of take that in little bits and pieces as they have capacity for or the energy to implement and things like that. It's. It's kind of a iterative process where we kind of just build and build and build and build to get to a place where the client wants to be or get to a place where we can achieve the goals that they're trying to achieve.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:13:36]:

Well, that sounds manageable. And it's starting to get dialed in. I think many listeners will like to hear that. And what I like about Embolden is that it. It seems to recognize this divide and the fact that this is fairly complex. Right. If you're not dealing with this full, if you're not in this profession full-time or not a full-time kind of enthusiast and understand the terms, that it's complex.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:14:07]:

And so you strive to educate. One of the things you do is educate people about the process and clients and take the time to do it, which I think is conducive with your business model at Embolden, which is, you know, hourly advice and it's, and you're not, there's not a conflict of interest built in there where, I mean, talk about the model and how that ties into what we're talking about.

Tim Melia [00:14:34]:

Yeah, so the way I approach things is, you know, I am an advice-only financial planner. So you know, we will have many conversations, and my ultimate deliverable to you is advice. I think you, the client, would benefit from doing this thing, and here is why, and here are the pros and cons of it for your consideration, and then it's up to you to go implement that thing. You could decide that the advice I'm giving you, yeah, you don't necessarily agree with it, and so you, you don't have to do anything with it. But I am giving you what I think is in your best interest, and I do want to hit on and appreciate that. Business owners are full-time, 24/7, focused on the success of the business. What does the business produce? Maybe that's my day job, and then at night I have to do the behind-the-scenes operations of the business, the books, all that kind of stuff.

Tim Melia [00:15:38]:

And then whatever time I have left, boy, I'd like to take a break. I'd like to go hang out with my family. I don't want to go do financial planning. So I appreciate that, and you know, I feel like I can be a partner in the decision-making and the consideration of things and kind of help identify the things that we should be thinking about or, you know, the things that we're kind of missing in your existing plan and things like that. And you know, to kind of represent that I want to be a partner, you know, that kind of ties into how I charge for my service. I charge an hourly fee for the advice that I give, which is different than, I would say, a majority of kind of that wealth management financial planning space where they're charging an assets under management fee. And they're going to say you have to have a certain amount of money for me to work with you. And, and that's prohibitive, especially for clients that have businesses where all their assets are tied up in this business and maybe they don't have a lot in their investment account.

Tim Melia [00:16:41]:

They maybe can't get into the door with a lot of other wealth managers. And I'm of the mind that everybody needs financial planning. And this is a low barrier to entry where you basically just have to pay the hourly fee. But I want everybody to get the advice. And so you know that that kind of is a way that kind of sets me apart from, I think, a larger universe of financial professionals, is the advice-only, hourly-fee-only model.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:17:12]:

I think it takes away the all-or-nothing mentality that is the barrier for people is to say, well, I just don't have enough either time or money or understanding to do financial planning. So I'm not going to do any of it. It sounds like, you know, with, with your business and what it's trying to address on, you know, years of experience in the industry is say, look, there are many people that want to invest and maybe a little bit at a time or getting a slow start or doing what you can. Like you said, meeting them where they are is better than, than doing nothing. And at a certain point, you do gain knowledge and experience and through conversations with you, you do become more comfortable. I mean, it's, it's a, it's a skill at the end of the day. Right. Much like any other skill.

Tim Melia [00:17:58]:

Yeah.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:17:59]:

And build a habit, if you will.

Tim Melia [00:18:01]:

Yeah, yeah. You know, I acknowledge that it could be kind of intimidating to, I mean, you do have to kind of open yourself up to, you know, a financial professional—that this is what I've been doing. I'm not sure if it's been right or wrong. You know, I'm looking to you for some assistance, and, you know, I'm really focused on creating kind of a judgment free zone. Like, hey, okay, you've been doing this, maybe we could do this. This will put you in a better situation because of these reasons, or what you've been doing is great, and I commend you and compliment you, and I don't have anything new to offer you. Good job. But it's an intimidating thing to kind of open up about your finances and your money.

Tim Melia [00:18:51]:

And there's a lot of issues and baggage tied up in how we think about money, how we interact with our family and spouse about money. There's, there's a lot. This is a very loaded topic for a lot of people. And, and it's, it's, you know, I appreciate people being willing to engage with someone like me to, you know, make sure that they're making the right decisions for their family and things like that. So.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:19:17]:

Yeah, and there is the fiduciary advisory part, which, which is a, you know, which explained the idea of a fiduciary advisor in the financial. What that means.

Tim Melia [00:19:28]:

Yeah. You know, in the financial planning universe, again, you know, there are professionals out there where their sole driver is how do I make more money for myself? You know, how do I sell this investment product with the highest fee so that I get the commissions and the kickbacks and, you know, all that kind of stuff. Those people are not fiduciaries. A fiduciary is someone that is putting the interests of the clients first. So as your fiduciary, as my client's fiduciary, everything that I share with them is because I think it's in their best interest. And unfortunately, because of things you hear in the news and all that kind of stuff, the Bernie Madoffs of the world and all that kind of stuff, the financial industry is tainted in that way. And it's very unfortunate. And so, I'm very proud that as Certified Financial Planner®, I have made a commitment to the fiduciary standard.

Tim Melia [00:20:30]:

You'll find it in my, in my agreement with clients that, you know, I am stating that contractually I'm your fiduciary. But it's really important for clients to know that the things that I do are because I think it's in your best interest, not because it puts more money in my pocket.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:20:47]:

And that's an important distinction. Again, you know, it sounds like you've. This venture of Embolden addresses all of the gaps and blind spots that you've learned through your career as an advisor and a business owner. And they're able to now advise business owners with their best interest in mind. And you help, and you don't draw a generational divide either. You're helping everybody from Gen Z's to baby boomers, I mean, whoever, like meeting people where they are. I mean, is that your client book? Do you have people from every walk of life and every generation?

Tim Melia [00:21:28]:

Totally. Yeah, I get that question a lot. You know who Tim is, your typical client. And it really kind of runs the gamut. I've got kids fresh out of college or even in high school sometimes that, you know, are, you know, with their parents assistance sometimes are just looking to kind of set course correctly before they even start making that first paycheck, like making sure they make money wise decisions from the get-go. I've got clients that have, are already in retirement, and, you know, may be early in retirement and want to kind of make sure, just checking in, that they're on the right path, they're doing the right things, thinking about all those things. And then I would say a majority of my clients, though, kind of land in what I would call the sandwich generation, where, you know, they're working, they're thinking about their retirement, but they may also have older parents and family in the picture where they have to think about maybe supporting them with their time or their money.

Tim Melia [00:22:33]:

And then kids, you know, they've got younger kids, maybe sending them to college, planning on how to help them in their lifetime. So, I would say a majority of the clients land there. But really, to the point, everybody can benefit from financial planning. Really. It's true. It's just maybe a different conversation. Very young, very old, or right in the middle.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:22:55]:

So ages 6 to 96. There's not a too early or too late for financial planning. And I mean, should it be taught in schools? Should it be taught in schools?

Tim Melia [00:23:04]:

Absolutely.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:23:05]:

I mean, what's your.

Tim Melia [00:23:07]:

Totally, totally. I am. You, you, you may want to ask my children the answer to this question.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:23:14]:

I saw where you, you had that conversation with your, I think it was on LinkedIn when you said, you know, if we win a billion dollars, if we win a lottery, what would you do? Right. As an example that you're having with your kids.

Tim Melia [00:23:25]:

My poor children, we can't do anything without me trying to draw some connective tissue to a financial planning topic. But you know, the topic you talk about. Yeah. Thinking about, you know, young people talking about financial planning, it, it's kind of a, you know, an interesting space because they don't have a lot of perspective and sometimes it doesn't mean anything to them. But we had a really cool experience where arbitrarily we bought a lottery ticket because it was like, you know, the billion dollar jackpot or something like that. And we knew we were gonna lose. Right. But it was a cool opportunity to ask the family around the dinner table, what would you do with this, this money? And God love my daughter, she was like, well, I'd give it to charity.

Tim Melia [00:24:13]:

Okay, you know, that's, that's really neat, but I'm curious, let's be a little selfish here. Like what would you do with it? And so it was just a really interesting conversation and I love the fact that kind of sparked my kids gears in their brains kind of turning a little bit on this topic. And you know, I look for things like that on a day to day basis. Like what can I kind of turn into just an open conversation about money stuff. Right. So yeah, for six-year-olds, it looks a little different, but there's opportunities to talk about money.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:24:49]:

But I think that's key is finding real life examples. Because if you were to pick one common thread of, you know, the, the gripes that kids have with formal education, it's what does this have to do with real life? And they start asking this right around middle school somewhere when they start struggling with math or geometry or science, they say this has nothing to do with real life. You know, teach me about something. Right. So if you're able to draw that parallel and connect it to something that relates to them, which at that age is key. It's hard to, you know, project out kind of an abstraction to something, but if you can connect it to real, to real life examples, I think that's, you know, that early age demographic, that would be the key to that education. And you know, I also think it should be taught in schools.

Tim Melia [00:25:41]:

Yeah, I know that some states, some school districts are making efforts that way and I applaud that. I love it. I think it's fantastic and it's needed. I think we've got a long way to go in that regard. And you know, I support, you know, any sort of endeavors by governments to kind of, you know, make that a priority. I, you know, I often think about my own experience where, you know, I had basically no financial education through high school, but for a, you know, go to the grocery store and price things out so you get a sense for, you know, what it's like to live, you know, you know, on your own paycheck. But you know, you roll into college, and you've got tables full of people giving you stuff to sign up for credit cards. You then go into a meeting with your financial aid person and they say, sign here, here's this money to be used for paying for tuition.

Tim Melia [00:26:45]:

And, and if I'm being honest, you know, when I went through that, I was like, okay, you know, my, my parents said to go and do this thing, you know, a credit card. Ooh, that'd be nice. You know, I'll just sign up here. Like we are, we are not arming our children with the education that they need because theres a lot of low-hanging opportunities to make big mistakes early in life from a financial perspective. Like you, you start off on the wrong path with a credit card, or, you know, if you're not fully understanding of what you're committing to with that student loan, you can find yourself in a real tough situation. When you get that education and you get that first paycheck, a lot of it might be going where you don't want it to go and that's to pay for those early-on mistakes. So don't get me started on the literacy for kids around finances. It's, it's a very important, it's a.

Tim Melia [00:27:38]:

Yeah.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:27:39]:

And in with how rapidly things are changing, I mean, I'm talking kind of a wide lens things changing technologically. AI, are we, are things going to change drastically in the financial planning world? Are we able to plan today for college 15 years from now? Or is it completely uncertain and unpredictable? Because I mean, I can tell you, I, I missed. Yeah, we, I could say we kind of bombed college planning. You know, we did it, but it didn't end up where we thought it would end up. So.

Tim Melia [00:28:15]:

Yeah, it is such an interesting conversation that I have with clients these days and with my wife about our own children, is what is college going to look like? What is the need for college given, you know, I would say this is, this has changed, at least for me, over the last five or 10 years, is the importance of college. You know, you, you hear all the headlines about how expensive college is and then you think about, well, what's the return on this investment if they're leaving with a degree that doesn't get them anything more than an entry-level job and a big old debt that they are now responsible for? You know, we've, you know, I explore with clients, you know, college for our kids isn't going to look like college for us. And so how we plan for it is kind of a bit of an unknown now. Like, is it a trade school, is it a community college where they could get a good enough education to get the same job if they went to a more expensive situation? And then you throw artificial intelligence into this whole conversation, and then you wonder, you know, what is that even gonna look like? What education do they need? Is it to be the programmer of the artificial intelligence? Is that going to be one of the only careers going forward? I don't know, but it is definitely something that I talk with clients a lot about.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:29:53]:

Yeah. And so, and it brings the question of, you know, planning. How do you plan for the unknown? There's kind of a contradiction built into the very foundation, you know, of that. And you know what, in terms of business owners, let's shift from kind of the college planning, but to the entrepreneurial and small business ownership world. What are some of the products out there? If there are any, I mean, are there kind of entry-level things that people can get going on, and what are some of the, or maybe there's something on the horizon that, that you see coming that we should be paying attention to?

Tim Melia [00:30:31]:

Yeah. So one thing that I see with my clients that are, you know, business owners or, you know, solo, you know, entrepreneurs is, you know, the opportunity to take advantage of, you know, like employer-related retirement plans. You know, things that if, if you set up, you know, like a retirement plan for your business, there's, you know, I'm not going to get into specific advice here, but there are, you know, tax-advantaged savings vehicles that you kind of now have the opportunity to establish because you own a business. And it could be beneficial to the bottom line from a tax perspective, but it can also be beneficial to clients long-term saving for retirement. And it can also be a beneficial opportunity to start to diversify their assets away from the business. Like a business is a very big, illiquid investment for a lot of business owners. But to start giving consideration to funding those retirement plans, investing in things like the stock market and the bond market, more liquid investments, that sometimes gets lost in the shuffle for business owners who are, you know, understandably so, have blinders and are focused on the business, the day-to-day, and that kind of thing.

Tim Melia [00:31:59]:

And so that's a conversation that I have with clients, like what does it look like after you sell the business? Are we, you know, kind of thinking about that, starting down that path, taking advantage of those kind of things now? So those are the important, some of the top-of-mind things that I hit with a lot of business owners if they're not already implementing those type things.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:32:24]:

Yeah. And it's early stage conversations and any amount of time that you can build in and plan for because like you just said, business owners will be, you know, uber focused on their business. And sometimes that's the only kind of, that's, you know, the only retirement, you know, that they have. Right. And then so they're planning on that to retirement. They don't always, very often they don't know what the value of it is, but they're, you know, we're already making future plans or we know what the value of it is. We listed for sale, we sell it, and then we come talk to Tim and say, you know, how do we mitigate taxes? How do we earmark this for something else which at that point could be too late. So a sale of a business really should be one point of your overall financial plan because at the end of the day it's an asset like anything else that needs to be managed and optimized for taxes and kind of future financial goals.

Tim Melia [00:33:23]:

Yeah, yeah. I hesitate to use the it's too late response because I'll say it's never too late. I will say there are probably less and less opportunities to do, you know, the better things with our money, the longer we wait. And so, you know, I encourage clients, even if you don't have like liquid assets, if you don't, you know, want to hit kind of the insurance, the estate planning conversations too hard, it's really important to have the conversations to start putting things on your radar of things to think about, like when you do have some liquidity. What do we kind of do first? Or, you know, hopefully this business grows and so we'll need to be insured for certain things, or we want to have the estate planning in place so it's never too late. But the earlier the better. Maybe not 6 years old, as we were speaking earlier, but, you know, the earlier the better we start hitting those topics.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:34:22]:

But if you're already a business owner, you're mid-career, and you're a business owner, it's almost never too early to start talking about what the exit will look like and when that is and understanding those numbers.

Tim Melia [00:34:37]:

Yeah. And to your point, Oliver, it is a bit of an unknown. What is this business worth, and what are we going to end up with at the end of the day? And if it all comes at once or if it's in some sort of installment sale, you know, can we map that out and be thoughtful about how do we utilize those assets or, you know, get out ahead of things and be thoughtful about it, it is never too early to have those conversations. But to the point around valuation, you know, we can, you know, I do this with clients who just aren't sure what their business is worth. And so we can run a scenario with, okay, business is worth X or business is worth Y. What does this allow us to do? What does that allow us to do? That's one of the fun things about working with clients is testing out or different future scenarios.

Tim Melia [00:35:33]:

What if we did X or what if we did Y? And start to explore those different things. And it definitely ties into liquidating a business or something like that. Yeah.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:35:44]:

And so as a business broker, business evaluation is, you know, is the first is the starting point and the jumping off point. And again, and just like selling a business is a part of the overall financial plan, a business broker, a financial planner, an attorney, a CPA are all part of the team. So, you know, I'm happy to be looped in and help with the business evaluation portion of it. If it then, you know, proceeds to sale, then, you know, we can take it from there. But then at least the piece of the rest of the pieces are in place. You know, there's a scenario where, you know, business owners spend their entire career, this is their life's work, they spent their entire career, you know, they invest their blood, sweat and tears and everything they have into starting the business, running the business, building it into something that's of value. And then the last chapter, it just tends to be an afterthought. Sometimes I'll just, well, we're you know, we're tired, we're stressed out, we need to retire.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:36:48]:

Something happens or maybe, you know, a life event that sort of accelerates the exit and then the exit can kind of get crumpled up and say, okay, now we're selling. So paying attention to that last chapter and giving it its due, you know, just like your beginning, middle and and end, you know, the end of the story can sometimes ruin the story, even if the beginning and the middle were great. So, you know, and I think from, from, from where you are, I, you know, the questions of people have a liquidity event coming up. The psychology can be, you know, I just need as much money as possible. But that's not always the case. Right. So answers shifting the mindset. And I don't know if you have those conversations of how much money do you need other than as much as possible.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:37:36]:

Just like with your, you know, with your daughter, I'll just give it all the charity. And it's like, well, it's a good idea. You know, it sounds like. But, but wait a minute, let's talk about it. How much money do you need? Because if you don't need all of it, then there are things we can do.

Tim Melia [00:37:50]:

Yeah. You know, sometimes I have clients where they're very focused on, I need to have a certain dollar amount that that's just the driver. Like, this is the amount of money I need. How they landed there, sometimes I'm not sure. But then you start to tease it out a little bit. I don't really get focused on that number. I want to be very thoughtful about what are we actually planning for? What are you wanting to do with the remainder of your life? Do you have to replace a car every 10 years? Do you want to travel? Do you want to leave a certain amount of money for charity or your heirs or things like that? Let's start to map that out. And that might suggest, you know, a completely different view on what has to happen with the transition of this business.

Tim Melia [00:38:44]:

You know, you kind of talked around the psychology of things. You know, I'm a financial planner and so everybody is kind of like, well, we're going to talk a lot about numbers. Well, we do talk about numbers, but there's a lot of non-numbers conversations that I have with clients.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:39:02]:

The why conversations.

Tim Melia [00:39:04]:

Why, you know, exactly. Motivations, you know, what's, what are, what are we after here? What's driving this? You know, again, I kind of alluded to it earlier that there's a lot of emotion, a lot of baggage tied up into money topics. And so the non-numbers conversations, I have gotten some pretty positive feedback from clients that they kind of weren't expecting the non-numbers piece of things. But we do spend quite a lot of time talking about the whys of things. Like, you know, sometimes it's, you know, talking with spouses who may come from different backgrounds, different thoughts on monies, different, you know, perspectives of the future. Sometimes there’s, you know, conversations that are had sometimes are very emotional. You know, money can be a very emotional topic.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:40:03]:

It is.

Tim Melia [00:40:04]:

And you know, for any number of reasons, money is an emotional topic. And so the downside of meeting virtually that I do with clients is I can't hand a tissue across the table to my clients sometimes. But I like to create space for that because if we don't give attention to the non-numbers side of things things, then I don't know that we're doing the. At least my approach when, when we're talking about financial planning, it's all part of it.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:40:33]:

I, I mean, I think that's an integral part of being a trusted advisor, is that you need to be able to have honest and sometimes difficult conversations that answer the question that you were brought in to answer. Because the tendency sometimes, especially around hard conversations, can be to ease tension, tell people what they want to hear. But if you're not delivering on the goals then, or not giving them your expertise, that you're sort of solely or not solely, but you know, that's why you're there. They brought you in because you're the expert and you're veering from that, you know, to ease the burden. I think we're not doing our job as advisors at that point. So I, I bet you, you know, you're sitting there sometimes in your client conversations, and you're realizing, hey, this is the first time these people are, you know, they may have been married for 30, 40 years and this is the first time they're having this particular conversation. They have never talked about this.

Tim Melia [00:41:45]:

Yeah, you know, I at times feel privileged that I even get to be part of this conversation. You know, a lot of the times in our meetings I'm asking questions and they, and sometimes don't have answers to the questions or haven't really thought about it. But then there's kind of value to them stepping away and kind of talking offline, thinking about things independently, thinking about things together. And you know, I feel very privileged to be part of that process, to kind of make progress that way and kind of, you know, create some positive conversations around that. And you know, you know, I just want to take a minute to appreciate you, Oliver. When my wife and I were selling our business, you know, you gave us some hard truths, and you were very honest, and you're very easy to talk to about that kind of stuff. And, you know, you know, we appreciate the space you created for us, and I try to do the same with, with my clients, too.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:42:47]:

No, I appreciate it, and, you know, I remember some of those conversations, but I think, again, if we, you know, if a year later, we've had really good conversations and we're really good friends, but I haven't delivered what you hired me for, then I haven't done my job as, as the advisor that you hired me. So I. It comes from a place of. I think, for both of us, from a place of, you know, love, understanding, and professional integrity. And so I think there's a space there. And this is a good question. I mean, how do you.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:43:27]:

How do you integrate kind of your personal and professional lives? Because sometimes you, as an advisor can, you know, you can hear some of these difficult conversations, and they stay with you. Right. And then you're at the dinner table, or you're with, you know, how do you draw the lines but still be a good family man and a good advisor?

Tim Melia [00:43:47]:

Yeah, you know, I. You know, I benefit from having conversations, so there's some personal benefit that, you know, sometimes I've got clients thinking about things, talking about things that I'm talking with my own spouse about, and, you know, kind of selfishly, I benefit from hearing them talk about things. But, you know, I. There are some conversations that, you know, sometimes I have clients that lose spouses unexpectedly, and, you know, stuff like that, you know, does impact me. But, but I. I know that I can be of assistance. I.

Tim Melia [00:44:34]:

I know I can be a helping hand in a lot of these situations. And. And that's, you know, kind of ties into my fee structure, where, you know, I am a fiduciary. I know my clients know what I'm doing is in their best interest. And so I know that that kind of creates some. Some space where we can have some honest conversations. And I'm not just trying to figure out how do I make that next commission off of my client. And so, yeah, you know, there's.

Tim Melia [00:45:04]:

There's a lot. Again, a lot of emotion, a lot of stuff happening in these meetings. And. And it does. You know, I feel privileged that I can kind of take some of that with me and think about it at the end of the day. Yeah.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:45:20]:

And, you know, you're aligned from a business model incentive standpoint. Right. With, with, with the clients, there isn't, there isn't a, you know, an advantage or a benefit. It's a win-win. It's always a, a win-win, which is a, you know, and I'm, our business model is the same. So I, you know, and so I, sometimes I hesitate to understand how anything else can, can make sense in a, in, in how any other business model can make sense. Because in the world of entrepreneurship, if it doesn't benefit the consumer, they're just not going to go and buy your product. It's their choice.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:46:03]:

Right. And, and, and so if anybody was forced, which I guess some things you are, but, but so that I think that's the right way to, to do business.

Tim Melia [00:46:16]:

Yeah, I, I, I, I, I lean on my approach, because it just, I feel good that I don't, I'm not like hiding how I'm benefiting from this relationship. Like I am very straightforward that I have to charge for my services, I do have to pay my own bills, but there is no hidden anything. You know, this, this may be a little different than again from the headlines we see with regard to, you know, money and investing in finances and the stock market. It's just, just like, you know, just like you pay your attorney and just like you pay your CPA, you're gonna pay me. And it's a one-for-one relationship, and it allows me the space to just be honest and transparent and you know, I think, you know, help my clients.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:47:09]:

So I think it feels like a breath of fresh air to the clients. I mean, they understand, just like in some of those difficult conversations, if you get to them and you have the why conversations, you know, they, they, then there isn't, there isn't something driving decisions that hasn't been addressed. Right. Some fear, some amount of money that may be, you know, based on incomplete or inaccurate information or could just be an, you know, irrational fear that hasn't been talked about. Same thing with the business model. I, I think if the client completely fully understands, you know, and there's complete transparency, then the conversations are easier to have as well. You know, you kind of have everything in front of you, and so, and I think you need that space, and you need that foundation to be an advisor just because the conversations can be difficult and they require trust. So.

Tim Melia [00:48:04]:

Absolutely.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:48:05]:

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, just shift gears a little bit to, you know, we are impacted by kind of the macroeconomic sort of factors and also legislature. Right. Heavily highly regulated industry where we're, we're impacted by, you know, various laws and then legislature that gets passed down and then we need to adjust. And again, that requires planning, too. So things like, you know, the tax cuts and jobs act and, you know, that kind of things that expires—there are incentives that come and go. I mean, how do you, how do you build in? Is that a part of it? Do you keep an eye on sort of what's coming down?

Tim Melia [00:48:51]:

Yeah, yeah.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:48:52]:

Inform how you structure your advice?

Tim Melia [00:48:56]:

Yeah, you know, I, you know, I absolutely have to be plugged into what's happening, you know, on, on the horizon as far as law changes, tax laws, all that's involved there. I, as a Certified Financial Planner® and as a registered investment advisor, I'm required to take continuing education. And a lot of that is what's happening with law changes and things like that. And it is one way that I serve clients is to be up to date on that. And if there are opportunities before a law comes into place or after a law comes into place, you know, that's kind of. That's my responsibility there. You know, it's, it's been interesting. You know, there was a big tax law change, the OBBBA, you know, that came into place, you know, not too long ago.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:49:53]:

Big Bill, Beautiful Bill Act.

Tim Melia [00:49:55]:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not easy to say. And, you know, the Secure 2.0 brought about some interesting stuff, and there's always different things on the horizon. But yeah, it's really important to stay on top of that kind of stuff and to see how that might benefit clients and their situation.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:50:16]:

Is there something in the pipeline that's coming that's big that we should be aware of?

Tim Melia [00:50:22]:

Well, I don't know if it's something that's coming. I don't know. But I engage with a lot of clients here in the state of Washington that still aren't aware that we have a capital gains tax here in the state of Washington. And that is a really important consideration when making transitions within a portfolio or otherwise to be aware of. And so, it's an opportunity for me to get out in front of that and let clients know about that, even if it doesn't necessarily impact them now. I want them to be aware of it. That it could be something that impacts them in the future.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:51:01]:

Putting it on their radar and making sure that, that, that they're aware.

Tim Melia [00:51:05]:

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I mean, in client meetings, I will say, I don't think this impacts you right now, but I want you to be aware of it, that it might be an issue of concern in the future. And, you know, in the space of taxes and in the space of estate planning, you know, I let my clients know I'm a financial planner. I'm not an attorney, I'm not an accountant. And so, we talk strategically about those topics and opportunities. But I'll also say, go confirm this with your attorney or go confirm this with your accountant, because they're in the weeds. They're the experts on executing that kind of stuff. And so sometimes I'm in communication with those professionals on some of these newer topics.

Tim Melia [00:51:54]:

Sometimes, yeah.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:51:56]:

And that's again, the importance of working with the team, because in each one of these areas, considering the impact that each one of these areas can have, you want. You want a professional whose core area of focus is that area. Right? And they can come in and come in and out, and as you know, you can recommend them and bring them in as needed. But, you know, I'll have those conversations too. It's, you know, without giving you tax advice, consider these things, right. Without illegal or contractual advice. Think about these things, or talk to your attorney about X, Y and Z. So that's the benefit, I think, of having a team, and really a team in place for a business owner.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:52:42]:

I mean, a business owner should have a financial planner, a CPA, an attorney that they have a relationship with that they can call on that's sort of more or less familiar with their situation. And they're not starting from zero every time something happens.

Tim Melia [00:53:00]:

Yeah, yeah. And you're kind of spot on there, you know, as again, to use the phrase a fiduciary, you know, doing things in the best interest of my client, you know, that may mean recommending that they go talk to someone else. You know, my ego isn't so big that I wouldn't entertain the expert advice of someone else. And that is what serves a client best, is to have input from those areas. You know, you know, estate planning, an attorney, taxes and accountant, insurance. You know, you know, insurance is a completely separate professional, right? So, you know, that, that definitely insurance, you know, things like that impact a business owner where, you know, what if you. The business owner is no longer, you know, you know, incapacitated, perhaps, or, you know, what happens then? Can insurance help that situation? And so, yeah, it's, it's really important as a financial planner, you know, sometimes, forgive me for using this, this, but, you know, sometimes I view a financial planner as kind of like the quarterback, and then we delegate to the other players on the team, which is. Okay, now this is the attorney's realm.

Tim Melia [00:54:18]:

Let's check in with them. Let's pass the ball to the accountant. Right. Let's. Let's delegate and make sure that what we're doing in totality is best for you, the client, or Oliver, the business broker. Go talk to Oliver, because he.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:54:33]:

This is the time. Yeah. And I often use the general contractor analogy with business owners. If you're the general contractor on the job, you know, you need to figure out what it's going to look like from start to finish, who the subcontractors are and when to bring them in. Right. So if you're. If you as the general contractor, are bringing in the flooring guy, you know, before the walls are up, you know, or bringing in the roofer at the wrong time, you know, you're going to have a hard time constructing that house.

Tim Melia [00:55:04]:

Well, that's an interesting point. You talk about the timing of it. That's right. And how do we set up the client to have the best interaction with these professionals? What should we be talking about? Getting a sense for having a plan for and then going to the attorney to confirm this is the right strategy or invite other opportunities? You know, how do we set up these others for success? That is, I feel partly my role is, how do I make the most of their time on behalf of the client?

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:55:38]:

And timing is key in setting some of these partners up for success. Right. Because if you're bringing people in at the wrong time, you know, they may say, I could have helped you two months ago, but, but, but, you know, oftentimes that is the case with, you know, if you've signed contracts or certain commitments before the attorney has had a chance to look at it, or if you've sort of put in place, you know, certain strategies. And then the tax professionals may say that it's, you know, again, but it's not. You can always. You can always do, you know, it's not too late oftentimes, but. But there are optimal time windows, right, for these things.

Tim Melia [00:56:20]:

Yeah. You know, sometimes I'm working with clients and kind of in the initial onboarding, getting started up kind of a thing, I'll identify something that is like, okay, let's hit pause on everything and go talk to the insurance professional, because we don't want to go another 24 hours without some giving consideration to this thing, or let's get the ball rolling so that when we're ready, that we're gonna execute without time wasted. So. Yeah, that's interesting.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:56:55]:

Yeah. No, and then, you know, there's that there's the legal term, time of the essence. And time is almost always of the essence. Like name a time when it's time not of the essence. So.

Tim Melia [00:57:05]:

Yeah, so.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:57:06]:

And oftentimes, early stage conversations, if you don't know, you know, very often, you know, we have complimentary introductory consultations. Come talk to one of us. Many other professionals do as well. You can learn a lot in that hour. And, and you know, the idea of the question of why you touched on it, you know, why are you saving, you know, why do you need an X amount of money? Right. It's, there's a parallel to, you know, the fitness world and, and healthy lifestyles. And then people will pick a workout or, or in kind of a, an eating pattern or, and it's, it's,

why are you doing a certain type of exercise? You know, I'm going to bench press, I'm going to run, I'm going to climb, you know, why are you doing it? What is it adressing in your lifestyle? What are you hoping to do, be able to do between the ages of 50 and 60, you know, place you're at? And that's what you should be training for. Yeah, training for, you know, the, the thing you saw on Instagram or somewhere else. Because they have different goals that mean.

Tim Melia [00:58:13]:

Yeah, totally, totally. And, and Oliver, it is so important that that goals conversation, it's the first conversation that I have with clients, clients. What are we planning for? What do you want to do? What does the future hold? In my first meeting with clients, we don't even really get into the numbers. We don't look at the account values, we don't look at insurance coverages.

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:58:37]:

You don't have spreadsheets in front of you. You are just.

Tim Melia [00:58:39]:

I don't ask a lot of numbers questions. I want to know what is most important. What are the priorities? What are the goals? What haven't you thought about, and what can I ask that will prompt you to think about it? And so, I've shared some questions in advance of that first meeting. Some really big thinking, big idea questions to kind of get the gears turning to come into that meeting ready to talk about what that future holds. And again, it's an opportunity to kind of sit with it individually, to talk about it with your spouse. And then, you know, come into that meeting and, and it isn't the last time we talked about goals because that meeting might trigger new goals or new considerations. And that is an iterative process. Those goals aren't static.

Tim Melia [00:59:29]:

That is something that may change over time. And so it is paramount that we have a really thorough, thoughtful conversation about what do we plan for? What's the purpose? Why are we doing this?

Oliver Kotelnikov [00:59:41]:

Why are we doing this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it can prompt, I mean, the questions you ask on those introductory calls can prompt some, you know, open up some big topics of conversation that require time to process. Right. It's this. Why, okay, I thought I needed all this money. Maybe I don't. You know, can you. Can you get through that in one day? Probably not.

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:00:07]:

You may need to disconnect. You may need to go on vacation. You may need to talk to your families, but spend some time with kids. You may need to do nothing for a week and then emerge with an answer. You know, six weeks to two months later, you know, you come to a realization, and now your position on this has changed. So, yeah, they're incredibly important, but you never get to them unless someone like yourself asks that right question and you don't have an answer right. You're just someone who asks the right question.

Tim Melia [01:00:35]:

Well, you know, I think that that is a big value that a financial planner can provide is asking the right questions. And I'm going to tie this into artificial intelligence, because this is a very powerful technology that's here and is going to get better. And so you start to wonder, where is a financial professional's place in the universe of artificial intelligence?

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:01:03]:

Do they have one?

Tim Melia [01:01:05]:

And I think about that quite a bit. I utilize some of it in my practice to make my practice more efficient, to allow me to continue to operate as a solo practitioner. I think it's great for a lot of reasons, but I also understand that it could replace aspects of the service that I provide in the future. In the future. Underline, double underline. There's still a lot of issues to be figured out, but it kind of just reaffirms for me the value of someone like myself as a financial professional is who's going to ask the questions. Like, the questions are really important. Again, what are we planning for all those kind of things? I don't know how quickly AI is going to replace that.

Tim Melia [01:01:54]:

But having a thoughtful human ear to hear the answers to, then ask the next question that follows, and to really suss out and be thoughtful about. Again, what do we plan for?

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:02:10]:

I think that's a great point because one of the. One of the cons, you know, there's many pros to AI, and obviously the potential sky's the limit. But, you know, one of the objections to it is that it kind of. It wants to agree with the user, and it wants to support them, and it doesn't want to ask too difficult a question or make too contradictory an assertion, which is again required to get to the bottom of the why and the goal. So, the day that it starts meaningfully disagreeing is probably when we.

Tim Melia [01:02:51]:

Instead of starting the response with great idea or good thought.

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:02:56]:

Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's great. Let's.

Tim Melia [01:02:58]:

Which, which isn't to say that you know, a client isn't sharing good thoughts, but you know, the, the I think the value that I think what clients in part look to me for is to tell the truth. Like, okay, that is one way to think about it. And in a caring, thoughtful way, how do I present an alternative consideration or, this thing might be a little bit better than what you're doing. I only offer it because I think it would benefit you more if we did this thing. And so. Right. When does AI take that over? I don't know.

Tim Melia [01:03:41]:

But I think the value of working with a human at this point in time is that, you know, like I've been sharing, is kind of teasing out the truth of things. The reality, being truthful about things.

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:03:59]:

Yeah. And that's a big unknown and it's an exciting unknown. Right. AI, if we could call it that. It's probably an exciting unknown. And I think it has made, you know, the rate of acceleration is one thing that at least I couldn't have predicted. I mean what, what I saw even six months ago or a year ago couldn't have told me where we will be today. I can only imagine, you know, five years.

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:04:26]:

And it's not. It only, it questions not only the place of a, you know, a business broker or financial planner. It questions the role of—what's the role of a human being in, in this universe? Right. Are we even, is there, you see, you mentioned, you know, is the only remaining job programming AI. I think even that ultimately.

Tim Melia [01:04:44]:

Yeah, right, right.

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:04:47]:

It's just a self-optimizing, ever-improving machine. To what end? We don't know. But we may become obsolete. Who knows?

Tim Melia [01:04:55]:

Yeah, I think we, those that aren't willing to adapt and pivot with the tool and make the most of it in whatever you're doing. I think, you know, they're going to get passed by it like it's, it's just kind of the new reality of things, and there will be niches created where the AI can't fill the gap. And you know, maybe that's the more human element of things. You know, I do know that, you know, we talk about the human element and AI. I know that some people look to AI for, you know, help with, you know, therapy issues, you know, in lieu of a human therapist and things like that, and if that serves them, fine. But, you know, I think there's also going to be some space. You know, if you think about financial planning, maybe it's less of the numbers stuff is done by the human, but more of the, you know, human side of things. The conversations, the talking about, you know, why do you have this money baggage? What was your childhood like with money? I mean, a lot of what we do. A lot of what we think about money is, you can pinpoint almost perfectly some sort of childhood experience.

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:06:24]:

If you keep peeling the onion long enough, you're gonna get there and say, this is it. This is the one event, you know.

Tim Melia [01:06:30]:

You know, some of the questions that I ask in that first conversation are like, what are your first memories of money? You know, did you talk about money issues with your family? And sometimes that's when the tears start to stream because we are so full of emotional baggage with money stuff, and sometimes we don't even have a clue.

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:06:53]:

Ever present fear that there isn't enough.

Tim Melia [01:06:56]:

Sometimes the spouse is hearing and learning these things for the very first time. And, you know, it's an opportunity to connect on another level. You know, it's, it's an opportunity for new conversations. It's an opportunity for new perspectives, like, oh, that's why my spouse is always, you know, resistant to spending. It's because her parents grew up in the Great Depression and they had no money. And, you know, all these kind of things that I think or I wonder how quickly AI can kind of place that or at least be a human third party to be asking the questions and hearing the answers and empathizing. Maybe empathy is the future.

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:07:48]:

Yeah, that's a good one. Or can AI be a therapist, a marriage counselor, and a financial planner for a client in one sitting? Like, you know, sounds like, you know, you sometimes are.

Tim Melia [01:08:02]:

Yeah.

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:08:03]:

Counselor on top of it, you know, so, yeah, you know, interesting stuff, but. But I think one of the things you touched on is, you know, college, and how this ties in is, what's the value of a college education? Yeah, you know, I think the most valuable skill, it looks like, is the skill of learning new skills and changing, you know, for the. In the future and adapting. And, you know, as an entrepreneur, you've reinvented yourself several times. Right. And, you know, Madeson Management was one of those chapters where you transitioned in and transitioned out, and both you and Melissa went on to do other things and made a decision to sell a successful business. Yeah, you know, and you know, chapters often get talked about because they're easily defined. Here's what I did here.

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:08:59]:

Then I did this, then I did this. What happens in transition? And you know what happened. What was that transition like for, for you to just go and do something else. And it wasn't entirely new, but.

Tim Melia [01:09:15]:

Yeah, well, it's, you know, I think about that question, and I go further back than just the recent sale of our business that you know, my wife and I kind of came together and you know, we didn't come from families of entrepreneurs. Everybody was working for somebody else. Nobody had started businesses. And you know, we kind of at that point in our life had, had weathered the, the Great Recession and you know, all of our colleagues are getting laid off and yeah, you know, that, that period of time and it's, and, and you know, we had had a taste for entrepreneurship with the, the property, the, the renting properties, and things like that. Kind of doing it for yourself. Right. So that was a big step; that was a big leap to kind of start to step out and do things on our own to work for ourselves. And there are, I will tell you, some of the most exciting moments and some of the scariest moments.

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:10:20]:

You know, starting a thing, excitement to total, just paralysis.

Tim Melia [01:10:26]:

I mean really the starting of the thing, making that leap to leave your nice stable W-2 job into that 1099 world.

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:10:35]:

Maybe benefits and weekends.

Tim Melia [01:10:39]:

What business owner takes vacations is the big question. And if I can be specific to property management, maybe my wife and I are a little shortsighted on this, that we were like, okay, we'll be business owners, and it'll be a very big thing in our life that will take a lot of our time. But we were fool enough to pick an, a business that is a 24/7 business. Property management doesn't go to sleep. And so, it happens all day and it happens all night, and there's no break. And I fully appreciate business owners who are plugged into their business 24/7, and then you throw on that, that you're, you never have the break there. But it is, it is again, very exciting, very scary to transition away.

Tim Melia [01:11:28]:

You know, I was fortunate with the sale of our business. The property management business is. I kind of knew what I wanted to do. I knew I wanted to get back in the financial planning because that had always, you know, first it pays the bills, but it really allows me to do something where I feel like I'm kind of paying it forward. In a way, like, I feel like I am genuinely helping people in their lives make, you know, a better life for themselves, for their family. It is a very rewarding profession. So, I was fortunate to do that. But still it was a bit scary because I had always thought about kind of going out on my own as a financial planner.

Tim Melia [01:12:16]:

But as you can see from my biography, I spent 15, 20 years working for other people because I was so hesitant to make that jump. But I benefited from the property management business because it taught me how to operate a business. It taught me a lot of the things to consider what it's like to have employees and all that is involved there. You know, when you have employees, you start to shift away from the doing of the thing that your business is to the management of the employees that you have. And that is a whole kind of different ball of wax. So all of those kind of things really set the table for me to have confidence, kind of shifting into this as my own business owner, a financial planner. But it is not without excitement, and it is not without, you know, fright, if you will, all along the way, you know, it's, it's, it's.

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:13:15]:

But that second week was easier. I would say, you know, go and starting Madeson Management and then Madeson Management to do sounds like what ultimately was your sort of dream destination. You know, you become a business owner as a property management company owner. But, but here you combine business ownership and your professional passion.

Tim Melia [01:13:37]:

Yeah, and I can, I can, my wife and I do reflect on this quite often. The property management business was really hard, and it was, it was hard as a business owner, it was hard as a couple co-owning a property management business. There were a lot of challenges on the family just by virtue of no time, and you know, is it time to connect on a personal level, or are we going to talk about business? You know, what is the right balance of work between us?

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:14:10]:

And there's one person that wants to talk about your relationship, and somebody wants to, is still in the business headspace, and there's a clash.

Tim Melia [01:14:19]:

You know, I, not to kind of veer off here, but I was reading your newsletter, and Oliver, you shared some, some information about you making a transition, and you had a business with, I think, a spouse. And I can kind of appreciate some of the things that you were probably experiencing and how, how challenging that must have been.

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:14:42]:

It's difficult. You know, we're raising kids, we're running a business. We're, we're, you know, trying to maintain a relationship. A, lines blur. You know, there is no that idea of work life balance is, Is, you know, was a myth for a long time, so. But I appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah.

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:15:04]:

I mean, that's kind of where what informs my. I mean, we can, we bring our experiences. Right. And that's, that's the only thing we can sort of authentically talk about is what we went through. So.

Tim Melia [01:15:18]:

Yeah. And thinking about that work life balance question, you know, working with my wife, who is, who I love dearly, who is my best friend, but we came to the conclusion, going forward, we're going to start businesses, but we're going to start our own businesses. Like, you go do your thing and I'll do my thing, and we'll come, come home at the end of the day and we'll be husband and tell each other something new. Right?

Tim Melia [01:15:44]:

Yeah, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right.

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:15:48]:

Right. No, it's, it's not, it's. It's not easy. And you know, family businesses, they. The family stuff tends to come first, you know, and the business stuff and the money stuff is heavy, you know, and it's. Yeah, it can be. It's a difficult, it's a difficult dynamic. And I completely understand why people don't want to be in business together and why they want to run separate businesses or have different careers and, and, you know, just come home and have time for themselves rather than still having this common, this business that they both share.

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:16:29]:

So. Is there anything, you know, and I appreciate the transition narrative. I mean, it's so important for business owners that. What is that space like? Because it doesn't get talked about enough. Because we're just going from here to here. Here are the main stops. And so understanding that that is a time of uncertainty and often a place of growth. And you probably wouldn't have ended up at starting in Embolden if you didn't run Madeson Management with Melissa.

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:17:01]:

Right.

Tim Melia [01:17:02]:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, exactly. The, the value, a huge value to operating that business is that it, it gave me kind of the courage and the freedom and the space to go, to go do this thing without fear. I mean, I knew I could do the financial planning piece, but the actual operation of the business, I mean that for any business owner, that's what comes with it. You know, you go out and you do this thing that you do, but there's always this operating the business side of thing that not everybody is comfortable with or familiar with or, you know, whatever. I, having gone through that, I was much more comfortable that I could handle that going forward.

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:17:49]:

Yeah, you have, you now have the skill, and you now have the skill of managing adversity and operating in, you know, some level of uncertainty and getting, getting to a place of comfort. So, I mean, that's, that's, that's a skill of business ownership. I think that, that can't be taught in school is you just, you need to be comfortable being uncomfortable for long periods.

Tim Melia [01:18:13]:

That is so well put. Yeah, it's, you know, it's such an exciting idea to go start your own business and just kind of go out on your own and, and make your way in life. But it is, it is.

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:18:26]:

And then nothing that you plan, you do it, you get there and then everything, nothing you planned works. Right. Or things happen. Like, and you look at it as like, oh, this is not what I imagined at all. Yeah, you are now here and now. This is your situation. What do you do?

Tim Melia [01:18:43]:

You know, and to be flexible and have the courage to just keep pressing forward to make a decision. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, pivot and keep moving forward.

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:18:54]:

Yeah, great, great advice. Do you have a few more minutes?

Tim Melia [01:19:00]:

Oh, yeah, sure.

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:19:00]:

Couple more. Okay, well, just a few, few questions. Anything that folks should be, anything you're excited in terms of books, podcasts, resources, I mean, entry-level stuff that people can. Or advanced level, it doesn't matter. I mean, what kind of stuff are you reading and listening to these days?

Tim Melia [01:19:18]:

Yeah, so I'll just key on a couple of things. One is a book that I find myself actually a couple of books that I find myself sharing in client meetings because topics pop up and these books are just really perfect. And the first book is, it's written by Bill Perkins. It's called Die with Zero. And this, this was, you know, as a financial planner, it actually created a mind shift for me. The, the premise of the book is, you know, it isn't about, like, saving, saving, saving, saving, and then, you know, as the title says, die with, you know, all this money that you then get to leave to charity or your kids or whomever. But it's focused on bringing forward those dollars into your lifetime and maybe being more thoughtful about getting those dollars to the charities or your kids or spending it on the things that you want to do during your life before you get too old to enjoy it or before you kind of pass away with no opportunity to enjoy it.

Tim Melia [01:20:32]:

And so certainly some planning is required to make this happen because you can't just literally spend to zero and then be dependent on others for the remainder of your life. So, you gotta be thoughtful about it. You gotta plan for it. But, but it was a mind shift for me because I grew up in a household where it was nothing but save, save, save, save, save. My parents weren't really thoughtful about why we're saving. And you know, I kind of see it with my own mom that she'll be dying with meaningful assets. And my dad already passed away.

Tim Melia [01:21:10]:

Didn't get to enjoy it. She doesn't have the concept of spending, so she doesn't get to enjoy all of their hard work. Right. And so that kind of just reaffirms what this book is saying is find the balance in life. You know, don't go nuts blowing everything. Right. But does it mean taking some time off of work and then coming back to work, maybe in a period that is more considered the retirement phase of life? Or does it mean shifting down in your amount of income but working for longer because you're able to create greater work-life balance? Lots of this stuff is in this book, and I think it's really valuable, and I share it a lot with clients because again, a lot of us were just like, save, save, save, save, save, save, save. But not focused on finding the balance with those dollars that we're saving.

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:22:08]:

I think these are powerful concepts. The idea of the whole you mentioned concept of spending. People have the concept of saving, but not the concept of spending. And I think it's something that if you just pass that money along, even if it goes to your heirs, I think what you haven't passed along is the example of what money is for and the fact that money is a means to an end and not an end right in and of itself, which often generations, that's their idea. Is that money. You just, it doesn't matter why save, save, save. Don't know how to spend. Don't know, you know, haven't enjoyed the fruits of your labor.

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:22:52]:

And whether you like it or not, your kids and grandkids see that. Right. And so if that's what you've passed down, you've probably done them a disservice, even if it came with a large chunk of money, because maybe they won't know what to do with it.

Tim Melia [01:23:06]:

Yeah, I mean, you know, my mom is going to die with money, and I feel in a way sad and disappointed because she could have traveled more, she could have might, you know, they, they could have done more things, but they, they didn't. Little self promotion here. They didn't go talk to a financial planner. They didn't build out a roadmap. They didn't see what was possible, they just didn't know what was possible. And the default was put it in a savings account, savings account, savings account. And they didn't get an opportunity to enjoy it. Now my mom's too old to travel, you know, all those things.

Tim Melia [01:23:48]:

It is an incredible mind shift to hit that phase where you're done saving and now to spend. And it is, it is, it is, it is a hard thing to embrace. And sometimes getting a plan creates the space, the freedom, the capacity to actually go do that thing, to go take that trip, take your kids with you.

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:24:13]:

And maybe the permission, right, that they need permission.

Tim Melia [01:24:16]:

Exactly, exactly. Yeah, you're right. Yeah.

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:24:19]:

And we focused, we've said this probably 10, 15 times that you know, it's better late than never and that there isn't too late, but time is finite, and arguably for your mom and many others, it is too late to do some of these things. So there is, you know, you have plenty of time, but there is a too late, and do things when you can. And you know, tomorrow is promised to no one. And some of these, you know, mid-career shifts that we're talking about, you know, it's the model was you own a successful business, and then you run it until you retire, and then you do the traditional things in retirement. But it's, you know, and kids question that for good reason. It's flawed in many ways because by the time you retire, you can't enjoy, you know, many fruits of your labor. You are older, your health isn't, you know, maybe so great. And so, I think understanding that, you know, back to time being of the essence, it truly is of the essence. And so having the whys in place and using money as a means to an end to accomplish those goals, I think, is a task worth undertaking.

Tim Melia [01:25:34]:

Yeah, it's interesting. You see the headlines about historical amounts of wealth are going to pass from the boomer generation to the next generation. I also suspect that a nonmonetary benefit or inheritance that we're going to receive is the value of being a little more proactive and using those assets during our lifetime. You know, being thoughtful about not dying with a bunch, but enjoying it, seeing, seeing others enjoy it. I mean, giving to charities, seeing people that are hungry getting food, benefiting immediately from these dollars as opposed to just kind of pushing it off into some unknown future.

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:26:24]:

What can be more rewarding than some of those things you just listed? You know, it's seeing that. What do you think about the other end of the spectrum to where people with substantial means say my kids get nothing they have to go make their own way. You know, you've, you've heard that school of thought, I'm sure.

Tim Melia [01:26:44]:

Yeah. I in fact have clients who say, yep, we're going to spend to zero. We've helped them with some things along the way, we'll continue to help them, but we've also taught them how to go do what we did. Now, I will caveat that, generationally, there are some challenges for younger generations, that older generations may have experienced something differently. Um, so, you know, I encourage clients to at least think about, you know, what is, what is your future going to look like for your kids? Do you want to leave them something? Do you want to do something now? But, you know, really is where you place your values, what you want to do. You know, there's, there's all sorts of connective tissue to different topics there in that space of conversation.

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:27:38]:

Yeah, yeah. Exciting range of topics. But I mean, I think this is a good place to stop. It's been a phenomenal conversation. We touched on a lot of, touched on a lot of nuggets that can each be, you know, a 10-hour conversation in their own right. But, but I mean, if people want to find you and talk about what you do and learn more about financial planning, what's the best way to, to get ahold of you?

Tim Melia [01:28:04]:

Yeah, yeah. So, you know, great starting point is my website. It's emboldenfp.com and lots of, I hope useful information on there about myself and my practice. But for anyone interested in kind of engaging in financial planning, I'd encourage you to schedule a free introduction meeting, which I offer to anyone interested. It's just, you know, a half hour to share what has you interested in financial planning, and it's an opportunity for me to kind of share how we could work together and the services I offer and how they might benefit, you know, you, the client. Really a great opportunity to get those questions answered and to learn more about myself and my practice.

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:28:57]:

Awesome. We'll put the contact information in the show notes if you want to reach out to Tim. And please say hello to Melissa for me.

Tim Melia [01:29:07]:

I will.

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:29:08]:

And happy holidays to you guys.

Tim Melia [01:29:11]:

Same to you. Thank you so much for your time, Oliver. Take care.

Oliver Kotelnikov [01:29:13]:

Thanks. Bye.

Why This Conversation Matters

Too often, financial planning is reduced to investments or retirement projections. But for most people, especially business owners, families, and professionals in transition, the real questions are more personal:

• What are we actually planning for?

• What matters most?

• How much is enough?

• What tradeoffs are worth making?

• What does a good life look like?

Those are the questions that often lead to the most meaningful progress.

Final Thoughts

I’m grateful to Oliver Kotelnikov for the thoughtful conversation and the opportunity to share more about my path, my practice, and the work I do with clients.

Whether you are early in your career, building a business, preparing for retirement, navigating a transition, or simply trying to be more thoughtful about money, financial planning can help create clarity. It does not have to begin with perfect spreadsheets or all the answers. Often it begins with a conversation.

My name is Tim Melia, and I am a CERTIFIED FINANCIAL PLANNER® Professional. I would be happy to answer any questions you may have or discuss how this topic impacts your life and financial goals. Feel free to email me at tim.melia@emboldenfp.com. If you would like to learn more about working with Embolden Financial Planning LLC, please schedule a free, virtual introduction meeting.

Disclaimer

All written content on this website or any social media platform is for informational purposes only. None of the information provided is intended as investment, tax, accounting, or legal advice, as an offer or solicitation of an offer to buy or sell, or as an endorsement of any company, security, fund, or other securities or non-securities offering. All information provided should be discussed with a registered advisor, accountant, or legal counsel prior to implementation. Opinions expressed herein are solely those of Embolden Financial Planning LLC (“EFP”), unless otherwise specifically cited. Presented material is believed to be from reliable sources and no representations are made by our firm as to another parties’ information accuracy or completeness.